Thursday, March 13, 2008

At Least It's Not A Woman Up There, Right?

"And it came to pass, when he began to reign, as soon as he sat on his throne, that he slew all the house of Baasha: he left him not one that pisseth against a wall, neither of his kinsfolk, nor of his friends."-- 1 Kings 16:11

Nothing like a good old fashion sermon on men "who pisseth against the wall." This dude can preach because he is a man, and by his own definition, to be a real man means pissing against the wall. So, that's the difference between men and women! No wonder we can't teach scripture, it's all so clear now! :)

Did you guys know that urinals were divinely sanctioned? Who woulda thunk?

Really, could a woman do much worse than that dude?

Ok, this video is posted for strictly humorous purposes, and because I haven't had a lot of time to work on more "meaty" posts. But I just want to make it clear that I DO NOT believe this bizarro-idea of "man-ness" is the crux of the complementarian argument or represents most complementarians in the least. In fact, I am hoping that this winner is the only one who thinks likes that. :)

But his mindset begs the question: Are our beliefs on "what makes a man a real man" distorted? Are our ideas of ideal masculinity shaped by scripture or by something like old western flicks, where men are gun-slinging, macho cowboys who pee in the wind and never shed a tear? Since the start of this series, the idea of gender roles and how they relate to or define our masculinity/femininity has consistently come up. So, I would like to know:

Which roles do you consider to be solely feminine and and solely masculine?

Which qualities do you consider to be solely female and solely male?

Or do you believe that most qualities are overlapping, but the ratio present within each sex should be distinct?

The reason I ask, is because I could not really pinpoint for myself inherent qualities (outside of the biological realm) that are solely male/female. I am sincerely curious of what the consensus is out there on this topic.


Peter said...

Should I be laughing or crying?

Since the camera is positioned in such a way to hide the audience, I envisioned this guy really being in a mental hospital, preaching to his stuffed animal collection.

Outside of motherhood/fatherhood- type roles, I cannot think of any qualities that are exclusively reserved for either of the sexes. I can think of plenty of qualities that are systematically repressed/suppressed by social constructs, though.

Rebekah said...

I think this guy is dead on. We need men to be men. To take charge. To be tough. To be no nonsense leaders. To be ruggad and manly. Since our culture has deviated from this biblical manhood (and the inverse for biblical womanhood), we are producing an entire generation of gays and lesbian cause there are no clear gender characteristics anymore.

rev. todd said...

Rebekah, what about when these no-nonsense leaders are wrong. I think men need more humility, which is a biblical virtue. And I think your claim that "we" are producing an "entire generation" or homosexuals is a bit exaggerated. Homosexuality has been around for many thousands of years... it's nothing to be afraid of.

Michelle said...

I do believe male and female hearts express distinct images of God's character... somehow, I don't pretend to understand. I think we're different in ways that far transcend our physical bodies (and in ways far more meaningful than which posture we assume to piss, for heaven's sake)

HOWEVER.. this guy is a riot, geez- and they say "emerging" type folks take a scripture out of context and run with it? gimme a break...

wait a minute... let me look at that again.. yeah, I think that's my grandma's church down in Louisiana!! (just kidding... sort of)

Michelle said...

I sent this link to my hubby and he replied with such thoughtfulness that I asked if I could share his words here, so - from my hubby:

It's interesting because I listened to Mike's (our pastor) sermon from Men / Women on
Biblical masculinity on the bus this morning. This kind of thing in
this video very much grates my nerves and gets under my skin.

I do believe that there are differences between men and women, beyond
just biology / physiology. I believe that God created men and women to
reflect his attributes in different ways. I think Mike illustrated this
kind of thing GREAT in his series. The main thing here is that
different does not mean better or worse. John Eldridge also talks about this
quite a bit - and what I worry about with idiots like this and the
reaction that it brings about is that society as a whole, particularly
in the US - already wants men and women to be the same - same in
behavior, same in attitude, same in outlook and approach to life.

Men have inborn desires to be the one that comes through in a pinch.
Men want and desire to be the hero, to be the last one standing, to be
the one that rescues the girl. But, what's assumed there by many - and
assumed wrongly - is that men want the woman to be weak, dependent,
sappy, whatever. What most men want and need is acknowledgement from
God and from other men, that they have what it takes to succeed. To
win. Men want and desire respect - both from men and women. It's when
they don't receive as a child and as young men, respect and the message
that they have what it takes - that men turn to these "images" from
Hollywood about what makes a real man. Then a man's strength and
desires are turned into something to be feared instead of respected.
It's at that point that a strong woman poses a huge threat to the
insecure man - because they don't believe they have what it takes.
They're thrown on the defensive instead of being able to have a strong
woman stand at their side...
I'd really like to unpack this more
but I just don't have any more time to focus on it right now.

Tonya said...

Oh my word! I was so embarrassed for this guy that I couldn't even finish watching the clip. I hope the rest of his sermon was better than his closing remarks there, but I sort of doubt it. Poor guy. And the poor congregation that had to sit through that. I would have suddenly developed an uncontrollable cough or something and run out....

I love what Michelle's hubby said. I agree that there are inherent differences that go way beyond the physical makeup and I think that those differences make women better at certain things than men are and visa versa. In a healthy person, the differences are deep and far reaching and have a whole heck of a lot to do with attraction (beyond just the physical) and bonding in marriage. Masculine is drawn to feminine and not just becasue we have different body parts. JMO?

If I had to pick things that are soley feminine and soley masculine (and you have to go to the relatively healthy individual for this because environment can produce some pretty messed up human beings) I would say that some feminine qualities would be softness, acceptance and emotional safety. Some male qualities would be protecting, providing and a necessary bit of steeliness. (Not in a bad way). I could think of a few more qualities I would personally put under each of those, but this is all opinion anyway and I don't feel like arguing today. (don't faint, Tia).

Tonya said...

NOT to say that men can't be accepting or emotionally safe and that women can't provide. Just saying that I think certain qualities to show up stronger in the make-up of the healthy woman or man.

Terry said...

First off...WHERE ON EARTH do you find this stuff? I found the video hilarious. Even though I actually agree that there is an agressive move on to feminize men, guys like the one on the video make a joke of people like me who actually kind like this idea:
" where men are gun-slinging, macho cowboys who pee in the wind and never shed a tear" within acceptable limits, of course! My hubby is for sure one of those. Yes, I have seen him shed a tear, but in 14 years, not many

When I read the scripture and see the commands and precepts laid out for husbands/wives and fathers/mothers, I am awed at how God's instructions speak directly to us as male/female beings. One example:

He admonishes fathers (not mothers, mind you) to be careful not to provoke their children to the point of anger. This is not to say that mothers can't make their children angry, but any honest parent of a child over the age of twelve can attest to the fact that as kids move into young adulthood, they tend to butt heads with dad a little more than mom. Mom wants them to be happy. Dad wants them to be responsible and show proper respect regardless of whether or not it makes them happy. And the expression "Wait till your father gets home!!" wasn't coined in a vacuum.

God admonishes husbands to love their wives. Why? Because though men can learn to "dwell with their wives according to knowledge", it doesn't come naturally. Men are satisfied a lot easier than women are (in general). Hot meals, comraderie, and regular sex is usually enough. They love through action- working, paying the bills, keeping the car fixed, etc. They usually have to learn that we nned lots of conversation and relational stuff to feel loved.

He admonishes wives to respect their husbands. Not love. That comes naturally to us. But most women (maybe not ALL) talk too much, and we say things that can be construed as disrespectful to a man when we feel our needs aren't being met.

I know this may sound like a lot of generaliztions, and if I'm wrong, I stand corrected but in my own experiences, and in exchanges with other couples, I have found that over all, these generalizations ring true with a few exceptions, but just a few.

As for gender roles, scripture is clear that a wise woman watches well over the ways of her household, builds her house, and is a homemaker (doesn't say she can abdicate that role if she works, either). In Genesis, Adam is cursed with the burden of work, and the burden of leadership of his family. I don't know where we get the idea that the husband gets the long end of the stick as the leader. It is a huge responsibility and many men approach it with fear and trembling, not a prideful sense of being "the man". At least MY husband does.

Tia Lynn, do you seriously believe the differences between men and women are biological only? wow!! Sorry for the long post.

musicmommy3 said...

Oh my goodness I LOVED it!!

NOW I FINALLY know what the REAL prob in America who pee sitting down.

I'm so enlightened now.

(breathing a huge sigh of relief)

And here all along I as praying that people in America would turn back to God...NOW I know what I need to pray-

Please help all men everywhere to come back to standing up while they pee.

That'll work.

(and yes, since you cannot "hear" me that was EXTREME sarcasm coming from my fingers)

catrina said...

I also found it kinda funny. His passion over peeing was extraordinary. It is very hard to pin down what one views as strictly male and female attributes, but I know that I definitely believe in some general ones. I think men should be brave. I would never be ok with my man taking cover behind me. I think it is easier for women to be nurturers and love. I think it is easier for men to compartmentalize. I think women are more emotional, in all my married life the times that tears sprang to my husband's eyes are few and far between and I think that goes for most of my friends as well. I also agree with Michelle's husband, Terry, and Tonya. And for the record, I don't care if my husband stands, sits or squats.

Michelle said...

Rebekah... my husband is convinced you are joking/being sarcastic and I am convinced you're not, that you're sincere. Could you clear that up for us? Maybe we can determine whether the male or female is more discerning of blog commentors' intentions. ;)

musicmommy3 said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Anonymous said...

I think what it is, is that he doesn't explain himself well. I don't know what he was saying before that and I don't know why that was his conclusion to his sermon, but if a country deliberately took out urinals in a man's bathroom and forced them to sit to "equalize" the sexes (because it is something that biologically separates male/female) and they made it against the law it's clear that there is an agenda behind it. In my understanding, and I don't know how true this is, that is often derived from a radical feminist agenda to degrade males because standing up and urinating is seen as a male asserting his manliness.
I understand where he's coming from and I understand his frustration but he's not delivering the message well. If I hadn't heard some of the background on this urinal thing I would think we was as big of a idiot as my wife thinks he is. :)

bionoc man/bionic woman


heavy equipment operators

they who pissith sitting down

I have to go now. I have to go look up tractors for sale.

-Michael (musicmommy3's husband)

Oh, and while I'm at it. I think I'll find a urinal to hang in my presidential bathroom next to my office in the basement.

musicmommy3 said...

I love you but I'm NOT cleaning a urinal!! :):):)

Plus, the kids would be obsessed and never want to use any of the regular toilets in this house.

You can get the tractor though. I think tractors are sexy!! LOL

musicmommy3 said...

I want to say this too (although I've posted entirely too much on this one)...I have nothing to add Biblically because Terry did a fine job of that I think.

However, I will add my observations of small children raised in good environments.

Very young girls and very young boys play pretty differently. I know that there are certainly exceptions to this (heck if it were proper I would STILL play tackle football with guys-for real) but generally boys are more rough and tumble, more destructive, more mechanical, more drawn to heavy equipment and cars, more drawn to guns/weapons. :):)
Girls are more drawn to playing house, dressing up, picking flowers, pretty things, etc.

Now of course these can overlap. My boys pick ME flowers because they think they are pretty and they know I like them. They like to cook/bake too but they are ALL BOY- rough, tough, fun, trail blazing boys!

Just some practical observations. :)

Tonya said...

My three year old daughter (youngest of 5 with 4 big brothers) plays as rough as the boys do. But she is recently obsessed with her baby dolls. They must be warm, fed, put to bed, prayed over, strolled and properly disciplined for calling people "poo-poo". No one told her to do her this. For an entire year they sat unplayed with, buried in the corner of her room under the stuffed animals. Then she turned three....

I think the difference is inborn.

And Michelle, I'm with you. I think Rebekah was sincere. We'll now see if we really do have women's intuition...:):):).

Greg Anderson said...

Good comments one and all! I think we can all pretty much agree that gender roles do not have to apply rigidly across the board in each and every case.

I went to a complementarian blog once where the author of an essay was touting the macho attributes of Jack Bauer (24). When I quipped that I'm partial to Clarice Starling and see a sort of steel in her that exceeds Bauer's, he wasn't to receptive... oh well...

Tia Lynn said...

Good thoughts everyone!

Terry, no not at all! I don’t believe biology is the only thing that differentiates men and women! I believe we differ in emotions, perspectives, experiences, etc. I was having a problem classifying specific “traits” that were solely for males or solely for females. For instance, I was on a complementarian site that said women need to be feminine and men need to be masculine and when either sex behaves like the other, they are in blatant sin. Then the author went on to list “feminine” qualities, apparently solely feminine qualities, and the list included being virtuous, meek, speaking wisdom, diligent, kindness, and the like. And while I agree that women are to be all those things, aren’t men called to those same qualities? I could not pinpoint non-overlapping qualities, but I firmly believe that men and women ARE different. While I don’t think this excludes women from leadership, I think women bring unique qualities to the leadership table. I just wanted to see if any of my readers had any clearer insight for me. :)

Michael, nice to have you! As far as I understand it, removing urinals from Germany was a “cleanliness” issue, not part of a radical feminist agenda. Men may have been meant to pee standing up, but after six thousand years, you would think they’d develop better aim! :) I work in restaurants where we have to clean the bathrooms and I would totally support making men pee sitting down because when they stand IT GETS EVERYWHERE. We’ve cleaned it off the ceilings! :)

grace said...

Hi Tia,
I have enjoyed following your series. These are interesting questions. I don't really see that there is a movement to feminize men.

It is difficult for us to recognize how socially and culturally constructed gender roles are. We often can't see beyond what we have been conditioned to believe.

I fully appreciate the differences in the sexes, but I think that stereotypes are often harmful particularly for those who find themselves outside traditional stereotypes.

You might enjoy this post that I read today explaining that many gender stereotypes are actually myths.

donnav said...

OK, that video shouldn't be watched first thing in the morning! ha I think I'll be sick the rest of the day....I don't think he would like my TNIV version at all.

As to your questions
1)roles: mother and father are the only ones that come to my mind and they are pretty overlapping anymore.

2)qualities: I can't think of any here as I do believe they overlap based more on personality type than gender.

Ok, now to go back and read the other comments...this should be an interesting side discussion you have started here!

Terry said...

Yeah, Tia Lynn, I see your point. What that particular minister described are indeed traits that any follower of Christ (male or female) should embody. Thanks for clearing up your position for me. Character qualities are never gender specific. I think women can be tough and tenacious (motherhood requires no less, if for no other reason than we have to actually get the kid out!) and men should be kind and virtuous. I think as I described above, however we go too far in insisting that men and women's roles are interchangeable, and as I described above, the Bible even acknowledges our maleness and femaleness when speaking to how we are to live and interact day to day. I had more Biblical examples but I thought my post was long enough. As a matter of fact, this one is getting rather long, too, so I'll sign off now.

Melody Joy said...

Tonya, I agree that God has made men and women very distinctly and differently. I think I'm the most complementarian egalitarian you'll ever meet. It is sooo apparent that we are created differently, but there are good reasons for that:

We display different aspects of God's character (which was mentioned a few times above).

Now, if men and women both display different aspects of God's character; if we hold what it says in Genesis true that God created man in His image, creating them male and female (phrased like that), then why would we only want men leading, teaching, and preaching? Doesn't that leave us missing at least half of the picture?

Tonya said...

Truth is Truth with or without the different aspects of God's character in play to teach or preach it:). I can see how men depending on their wise wives input and help as they lead would be very advantageous though. This would be a couple functioning as one person. And it would be entirely biblical:). I don't think you have to step outside the confines of biblical teaching to get God's best in regards to using his created beings to their full potential.

Melody Joy said...

So, then, are you saying that a woman who is one half of a couple would be totally alright to preach a sermon or be part of a pastoring pair, but a single woman would not? Could a married woman teach if her husband wasn't present? I think that a couple ministering as one is an amazing picture of God's heart toward us, it's true. But a woman standing and preaching is no more out of line than a man standing and preaching. Both have been endowed with gifts for ministering by their creator. My point is that these gifts work BEST in conjunction, not that they were meant to be used only in conjunction, does that make sense?

I still think this has been unanswered:
Now, if men and women both display different aspects of God's character; if we hold what it says in Genesis true that God created man in His image, creating them male and female (phrased like that), then why would we only want men leading, teaching, and preaching? Doesn't that leave us missing at least half of the picture?

Tia Lynn said...

excellent point melody!